Comments on: Flash and Java on the iPhone: Video Dream vs. Security Nightmare Redux http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2008/09/04/flash-and-java-on-the-iphone-video-dream-vs-security-nightmare-redux/ For people who dare to Phone Different. Mon, 23 Nov 2009 09:04:28 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Keil Miller http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2008/09/04/flash-and-java-on-the-iphone-video-dream-vs-security-nightmare-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-15228 Keil Miller Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:20:14 +0000 http://www.theiphoneblog.com/?p=4112#comment-15228 <p>There is no need for flash. It has a static size that would make it hard for iPhone users. Even on a desktop, not everyone has flash installed. Web designers must remember this! Flash and keyboard input would be arkward. My main bug with flash/java is the lack of a standard GUI for controls. Just make a web app, or use javascript. Is it really that difficult? I have an nes for games... And a great native platform on the iPhone! Another reason why it is not needed.</p> There is no need for flash. It has a static size that would make it hard for iPhone users. Even on a desktop, not everyone has flash installed. Web designers must remember this! Flash and keyboard input would be arkward. My main bug with flash/java is the lack of a standard GUI for controls. Just make a web app, or use javascript. Is it really that difficult? I have an nes for games… And a great native platform on the iPhone! Another reason why it is not needed.

]]> By: /agreed http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2008/09/04/flash-and-java-on-the-iphone-video-dream-vs-security-nightmare-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-14022 /agreed Fri, 05 Sep 2008 21:36:32 +0000 http://www.theiphoneblog.com/?p=4112#comment-14022 <p>Totally agree with /disagree, couldnt be better explained, the only thing he may have missed is the business&marketing perspective with its time constraints that could be the reason for all the "lacking". </p> <p>Apple might be enjoying a sweet time but if they dont deliver in the future (near one) they could loose their momentum as there will be plenty of superior devices, with better screens (i was expecting a higher resolution screen), camera, gps... Every tech-spec of the iphone is bettered by another device on the market, except for the multi touch screen, and the App store platform. As disagree said, it would only take another vendor to combine the best of every current device, and create a more open development&distribution platform to end Apple's sweet moment, and everything is at hand for, say, SE or Htc, Google or even MS, to do it, proven whoever tries to get the momentum back doesnt fall for the same mistakes.</p> Totally agree with /disagree, couldnt be better explained, the only thing he may have missed is the business&marketing perspective with its time constraints that could be the reason for all the “lacking”.

Apple might be enjoying a sweet time but if they dont deliver in the future (near one) they could loose their momentum as there will be plenty of superior devices, with better screens (i was expecting a higher resolution screen), camera, gps… Every tech-spec of the iphone is bettered by another device on the market, except for the multi touch screen, and the App store platform. As disagree said, it would only take another vendor to combine the best of every current device, and create a more open development&distribution platform to end Apple’s sweet moment, and everything is at hand for, say, SE or Htc, Google or even MS, to do it, proven whoever tries to get the momentum back doesnt fall for the same mistakes.

]]> By: /disagree http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2008/09/04/flash-and-java-on-the-iphone-video-dream-vs-security-nightmare-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-14000 /disagree Fri, 05 Sep 2008 16:59:59 +0000 http://www.theiphoneblog.com/?p=4112#comment-14000 <p>Arguably, Mac OSX is a more solid mobile foundation than, say, Windows CE, but Apple's actions render that advantage nearly irrelevant. A 'UNIX box in your pocket' does not throw the most useful features of UNIX, and no, I am not talking about a terminal shell, though I would not mind one. (A real computer might have a visible file system, for example.) As for your specific examples, what good is 'BSD networking' if developers are prohibited from managing sockets and keeping them alive? What good is a 'full Darwin kernel' if the device is restricted essentially to a single-process machine? Apple relies on these abilities itself, even if they prohibit 3rd parties from doing so in the name of 'battery life.' Remember, we have the advantage of the 'full Darwin kernel,' which has one of the best task schedulers around, yet Apple cannot seem to tweak that scheduler to manage resources effectively in a mobile environment, so they give up, eliminating an entire class of useful applications unless they happen to make it themselves. The BSD kernel itself shows the value of a larger pool of developers than just those in-house.</p> <p>With that track record, it is hard to take claims of security seriously, especially if nebulous security concerns are touted as the drawback for these plugins. If security is a problem, force plugins to run as a different user with lower privileges -- that is yet another advantage of a 'full Darwin kernel,' right? A cracker would have not only to find an exploit in Flash, but also in Apple's userlevel management, to do any real damage. Apple would the final word on security, just as they do now. If they are running Safari as root, then they already are open to the same security issues that Mac users mock in Windows. If they cannot create such process jails, then it is hard to argue they have created a full 'UNIX box in your pocket;' either technically or with product restrictions, they have negated what could have been a great advantage.</p> <p>Don't get me wrong -- I am enjoying my iPhone 3G, and have not even jailbroken it (yet). However, it pains me to see Apple making the same mistakes with the iPhone in 2008 they made with the Mac in 1988. In the 80s, Apple feasted on its tech lead and high margins, until somebody came out with something more open to developers and cheaper. It did not matter if Windows only did 80% of the things, and only did those 80% as well. It stepped in and squashed the Mac, sending it into a two decade long tailspin from which it <em>may</em> now be recovering.</p> <p>The iPhone is in that same mid-80s honeymoon period as the Mac, where it enjoys some clear advantages. However, as long as Apple keeps holding on to these artificial restrictions, they leave the door open for another phone (WinCE? Android? Symbian?) to swoop in and take over. Hopefully, they have learned from their mistakes.</p> Arguably, Mac OSX is a more solid mobile foundation than, say, Windows CE, but Apple’s actions render that advantage nearly irrelevant. A ‘UNIX box in your pocket’ does not throw the most useful features of UNIX, and no, I am not talking about a terminal shell, though I would not mind one. (A real computer might have a visible file system, for example.) As for your specific examples, what good is ‘BSD networking’ if developers are prohibited from managing sockets and keeping them alive? What good is a ‘full Darwin kernel’ if the device is restricted essentially to a single-process machine? Apple relies on these abilities itself, even if they prohibit 3rd parties from doing so in the name of ‘battery life.’ Remember, we have the advantage of the ‘full Darwin kernel,’ which has one of the best task schedulers around, yet Apple cannot seem to tweak that scheduler to manage resources effectively in a mobile environment, so they give up, eliminating an entire class of useful applications unless they happen to make it themselves. The BSD kernel itself shows the value of a larger pool of developers than just those in-house.

With that track record, it is hard to take claims of security seriously, especially if nebulous security concerns are touted as the drawback for these plugins. If security is a problem, force plugins to run as a different user with lower privileges — that is yet another advantage of a ‘full Darwin kernel,’ right? A cracker would have not only to find an exploit in Flash, but also in Apple’s userlevel management, to do any real damage. Apple would the final word on security, just as they do now. If they are running Safari as root, then they already are open to the same security issues that Mac users mock in Windows. If they cannot create such process jails, then it is hard to argue they have created a full ‘UNIX box in your pocket;’ either technically or with product restrictions, they have negated what could have been a great advantage.

Don’t get me wrong — I am enjoying my iPhone 3G, and have not even jailbroken it (yet). However, it pains me to see Apple making the same mistakes with the iPhone in 2008 they made with the Mac in 1988. In the 80s, Apple feasted on its tech lead and high margins, until somebody came out with something more open to developers and cheaper. It did not matter if Windows only did 80% of the things, and only did those 80% as well. It stepped in and squashed the Mac, sending it into a two decade long tailspin from which it may now be recovering.

The iPhone is in that same mid-80s honeymoon period as the Mac, where it enjoys some clear advantages. However, as long as Apple keeps holding on to these artificial restrictions, they leave the door open for another phone (WinCE? Android? Symbian?) to swoop in and take over. Hopefully, they have learned from their mistakes.

]]> By: Jon http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2008/09/04/flash-and-java-on-the-iphone-video-dream-vs-security-nightmare-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-13948 Jon Fri, 05 Sep 2008 00:37:00 +0000 http://www.theiphoneblog.com/?p=4112#comment-13948 <p>If iPhone incorporates Flash it's going to set a precedence for other plugins, and eventually the Mobile Safari will be as bloated as the desktop-based web browser can potentially become. More generally, is Flash even necessary? Everything that is currently done with Flash can be done better with HTML, CSS, and Ajax anyway - which by the way is far more conducive to a touch screen based browser than Flash ever could be. The only way I want Flash on the iPhone is if Adobe and Apple develop some sort of working relationship, where bugs and security fixes are addressed in a timely fashion.</p> If iPhone incorporates Flash it’s going to set a precedence for other plugins, and eventually the Mobile Safari will be as bloated as the desktop-based web browser can potentially become. More generally, is Flash even necessary? Everything that is currently done with Flash can be done better with HTML, CSS, and Ajax anyway – which by the way is far more conducive to a touch screen based browser than Flash ever could be. The only way I want Flash on the iPhone is if Adobe and Apple develop some sort of working relationship, where bugs and security fixes are addressed in a timely fashion.

]]> By: kidtreo http://www.theiphoneblog.com/2008/09/04/flash-and-java-on-the-iphone-video-dream-vs-security-nightmare-redux/comment-page-1/#comment-13933 kidtreo Thu, 04 Sep 2008 20:03:07 +0000 http://www.theiphoneblog.com/?p=4112#comment-13933 <p>The "advantage" to blocking these technologies is NOT to the consumers Rene but Apple's and supports their increasingly Micro$oft way of attempting to control all they survey under the "360 spherical" moniker. And don't think for a minute standard HTML, CSS, AJAX are going to catch up to Flash and Java's capabilities anytime soon (think years if ever) and so it's simply untrue that this is a good thing.</p> <p>If Flash and Java had no value - no one would use them. That they are in fact heavily used by millions indicates their value - and thus they<em>must</em>be considered part and parcel of the "full" internet.</p> <p>Just like we didn't want MS forcing what solutions and technologies we use in years past - likewise we don't want Apple doing the same now - on any platform. Every technology (including iPhone OS) has security holes that get filled. This is not an excuse to not use different technologies just as undermining our rights to privacy or reasonable search and seizure is not a solution for better "homeland" security.</p> <p>jeeze...fanboi much?</p> The “advantage” to blocking these technologies is NOT to the consumers Rene but Apple’s and supports their increasingly Micro$oft way of attempting to control all they survey under the “360 spherical” moniker. And don’t think for a minute standard HTML, CSS, AJAX are going to catch up to Flash and Java’s capabilities anytime soon (think years if ever) and so it’s simply untrue that this is a good thing.

If Flash and Java had no value – no one would use them. That they are in fact heavily used by millions indicates their value – and thus theymustbe considered part and parcel of the “full” internet.

Just like we didn’t want MS forcing what solutions and technologies we use in years past – likewise we don’t want Apple doing the same now – on any platform. Every technology (including iPhone OS) has security holes that get filled. This is not an excuse to not use different technologies just as undermining our rights to privacy or reasonable search and seizure is not a solution for better “homeland” security.

jeeze…fanboi much?

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